Peppermill Gulf

[Mark J]

So this discussion is a good, practical follow up to the recent post about trespass. It points out that most private property owners who throw up a few posted signs have not met the legal standard for making their properties off limits, only the particular access point in question. The only legally effective way to post one's land is to post the entire perimeter at regualar intervals. Posting commonly used access points only is not enough to define the area that is considered off limits to public access. Posting one side of a creek does not prohibit public access to the creek and creekbed unless the opposite side is also posted by the same landowner.

When going from any public point (such as a public road) to any other point on unfenced, unposted, unimproved land (such as a waterfall), all that is required is to take a path that does not cross fences, pass within sight of any improvements, or pass between any two posted signs that are visible from a given point. If you encounter posted signs, all that is required is to backtrack to where you can no longer see the signs, and find another unfenced, unposted, unimproved route to your destination. It is entirely possible that the path you take will lead you to your destination without crossing the land of the party who posted one or two signs at a common access point downstream or near the public road. Instead, you will be crossing the land of his neighbor, who has not objection to your access, or you will be crossing a different portion of the same owners land to which he has no objection to your accessing. By turning back when you encounter posted signs, you have complied with the intent of the signs; this does not prevent you from finding another lawful path to your destination. Wandering on unfenced, unposted and unimproved land is one's right in the United States of America under English common law and the laws of most states, unless you are personally told by the property owner to stay off their property. It is not incumbent upon the wanderer to determine the ownership of unfenced, unposted, unimproved land prior to entering that land for a lawful purpose. If you enter unfenced, unposted, unimproved land for the purpose of extracting minerals, having an unpermitted campfire or throwing a keg party, expect to be charged with trespass. Use common sense and show common courtesy to all but don't be intimidated into surrendering the lawful exercise of your rights.

This is my humble opinion as one individual member of nyfalls.com.

Mark J.

[backpacker]

Just to put in my 2 cents,
I teach Hunter & Bow education classes, this question always comes up when we have the ECO in. This is a very gray area, the rules are not cut in stone for posting, there is guide lines to be followed such as posted every 300 feet or with in sight of the last sign, and on a stand alone post, all signs must be signed, etc, just because these guide lines weren’t met and somebody trespasses that person is still trespassing. Most creeks, rivers etc are public property and you can walk the bed or bank and be safe, but not always. Just because one side is posted and not the other doesn’t mean somebody else owns it. The same rule applies to water as road, you own to the middle of the road but you have no say about it.

Common law or not posting is a big gray area and every state is different. I know that in Montana if you want to post your property all you have to do is make an ORANGE mark at the gate, trail,or road opening (no sign required), just because you come to a corner fence line doesn’t mean your on somebody else’s property you best find the gate or opening to that section of fence which could be 10 miles down the road.

I don’t want to carry this on as I see no end in sight, best bet is use common sense, try and find the owner and get permission, or do your homework and check with the county or town office and see who pays taxes on the land and contact that person. Most of the time if you contact the land owner and tell them what your intentions is they won’t object to letting on, MOST OF THE TIME.

And to quote Mark
“This is my humble opinion as one individual member of nyfalls.com”

[Brenda]

The same rule applies to water as road, you own to the middle of the road but you have no say about it.

That's why when I bought this property I made sure that the deed was changed to read that my line is on the other/western side of the creek, so I own the creek along my property. The same landowner was selling both parcels so it wasn't a big deal to have that change made.

[Mark J]

Excellent response, Backpacker. Glad you pointed out that even the conservation officer concedes that trespass is not a black and white issue. It is a little different when you are going to hunt on someone's land, launching projectiles and taking game, as opposed to simply hiking. I certainly agree that a hunter should specifically seek out and obtain landowner permission before entering private property to hunt. However there is no reason for a hiker who is taking only photographs and leaving only footprints to seek permission to enter unfenced, unposted, unimproved land. Our lawmakers in their wisdom have already granted us the right to do this, while also assuring the right of property owners to post their land if they wish.

I am a landowner. My land is open to hikers at any time with no permission needed, and to both gun and bow hunters with permission. It is because I keep my land open that I have well maintained trails that I can enjoy with no effort on my part. Only rarely do I get and any litter of any type on my trails.

Mark J

[champy1013]

has indeed been re-posted with gusto - "no hikers - will be prosecuted" handwritten signs.
So - where do we go from here as far as the profile is concerned?

[Matt]

I'll wait on someone to check with a legit owner or the town/county clerk.
I did put a warning on the profile.

[Matt]

confirmation from Heather79 that it is indeed posted.

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[cbobcat49]

traps?