Gasland

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hobkyl
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Thanks Des.

:popcorn:
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Des, I have zero interest in re-hashing this with you or anyone else. The lines on this issue have been pretty clearly drawn for some time now. I will say that fracking is not okay in anyone's backyard. There are people out there, like myself, who are working toward sustainable solutions. It is nice to see that Kyle is developing a fan base, but anyone who truly "cares about the environment" would never support fracking.
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hobkyl
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:tantrum:
“There’s an inconsequentiality to our lives that living in the wilderness shows up. Mountain are real, they set their limits, they set ours. They expose us, make us vulnerable and strong at the same time. “
--Alison Wat




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Matt
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Just a note on #3 and since I finally did see Gasland, my thoughts:
A lot of Upstate NY has been natural gas drill-welled (although using much less aggressive processes) for decades. Especially western NY. Those wells, many abandoned, have become the burden of taxpayers, as the energy companies plan it that way (I would be more concerned about this anything else). Fracking is nothing new. When I studied fracking in undergrad, it was a feesable practice with little environmental impact, prmarily because no one was willing to spend that much to get natural gas at that price. Times have changed and now it IS a concern because a the demand for a few wells in a town has become a demand for tens of thousands. TENS of THOUSANDS. Mining is especially not new. But thew aggressiveness and lawlessness at which fracking is occurring around the USA, where damages are being quickly covered up with private payments and lawmakers are torn between what the people want and what the companies are paying for.. that's what's ne... no wwait.. that's not new either.

Fact is that People have been drilling wells in Upstate NY for decades, successfully, but with moderation and oversight of that process, because it really is just a few thousand at best. Chances are we have driven past, play within a beach or park, or are within a town, that has been welled for natural gas. Does that make the current process safe, I don't think so. Does unsafe mean don't do it? Not necessarily. Fracking can be done right by design. But as we all know that the rock underneath us is not designed and is certainly not without oddities. Anyone who has walked Watkins Glen can see it takes just one vertical fissure in the rock to blend strata together. How do toxic or questionable chemicals stay contained within a system that by nature is not contained? We aren't talking about granite mountains here. This is linestone and shale. We can break it with out hands. And the region is not immune to seismic activity as we have seen in recent years.

The best resolution is to hold energy companies responsible and to block them from using subsidiaries from limiting their liability. Prevent bankruptcy.

This is how mining works in America.
1: Oil company A wants to frack a town dry.
2: They create a subsidiary, and independent corporation with it's own tax ID and liability: Sub B.
3: They create an agreement that Sub B must provide A with gas and lease equipment. Sub B brings in contract workers, hires some local labor.
4: Sub B agrees to pay leasing with gas accumulated from the wells. Parent A, located out of state, gets all the gas and much of the revenue from its sale.
5: Sub B operates wells. More wells are drilled then sealed and capped. By design, debt is racked up. Some debts are paid in an effort to assure surrounding communities. Lawsuits and wells go unsettled.
6: When the area is nearing dry, by design, dept is at a peak, Parent company A calls to collect debt. Any lawsuits from people/farms/businesses damaged by the mining operation collect as well.
7: Sub B declares bankruptcy. Pays little to nothing.
8: Unsealed wells and contaminated growndwater sites go under federal or state plans, such as brownfield or "Superfund" system, and out of our pocket.

So even if you are pro Fracking and pro mining, if you aren't directly profiting from it with a job or hotel contracted to house out of state workers, you will probably end up paying a bit for it later on. And contaminated aquifers is one of the most expensive cleanup efforts. But the people that are brought in from out of state to work on wells, and the state and county who pulls in sales and property tax will do wonderfully with that money. Good for them. We all know that when our governments make more tax revenue, it ends up in them spending it or saving it responsibly, right? right? If only they were as wise as Parent A when it comes to working the system.
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Des219
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You're welcome Kyle.

Glad to see that Brenda read my comments and is not for fracking in any location. I probably am against fracking overall because of basically what Matt said in his point of how fragile the rock base is. It does seem unlikely that the fracking process would be contained even if they poor and seal their wells with concrete, what happens when the Earth shifts from an earthquake?

I support Kyle in that he has valid reasons to not throw away the possibility of fracking just because of the media. It is not right to attack him for his view point, but it is fine to be opposed to it.
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On the topic but from a different view.... Any conflict in Syria (with the very good possibility of kick starting WW3) that arises will be the result of the petrodollar and our reliance on oil, not because he or they used chemicals. The US doesn't exactly have the best track record when it comes to killing or toxifying hundreds of thousands of people with chemicals. We can continue down this road and send our troops in harms way, kill thousands if not hundreds of thousands including women and children, and do it all over again in 3-1/2 years to save our environment (with realistically thus far no major consequences in a 60+ year period as a result of fracking compared to those endured in war just in the past decade) or we can get realistic about our energy needs.

Unfortunately all this bickering is for naught. We the people have no say. Even if every American man, woman, and child demanded clean energy, we are at the mercy of our government who will not give up his affair with oil.

So while I may not "care about the environment" one could make the accusation that you don't care about our troops or ever growing debt. ;)
“There’s an inconsequentiality to our lives that living in the wilderness shows up. Mountain are real, they set their limits, they set ours. They expose us, make us vulnerable and strong at the same time. “
--Alison Wat




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Matt
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Good points, Kyle.
For the first year, i signed up for that "green energy option" from my utility. I guess that's kind of like voting, right?
The Syria things sucks... yeah and I see it's already affecting gas prices (if that honestly is related is in question - how can a country that supplies less than 1% of the world's oil affect 10% of it's price - someone is lying).
We have to admit... the US has made great strides in foreign oil dependance. Transportation fuel economy is up across pretty much all methods of transport (we have to thanks form federal laws to some degree), and that was enough to make some foreign producers worry that demand was dropping along with their bottom line. Unfortunately, China and India are snapping up cars with little regard to fuel prices (which are heavily subsidized) and offsetting our decrease in demand.
Anyways... Fracking is a temporary solution. We know that. What happens when we fracked it all? What next? Shift our infrastructure to another form of petrol? Shouldn't we focus more of skipping the next in the line of non-renewable sources and invest heavily on sustainable energy? And then be world leaders selling patents and tech when the rest of the world has to catch up (although seems Germany and Denmark are now leaders here)?
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Carcinogens to Go?

I got stuck behind one of these trucks on the Thruway and ended up with this shit all over my car about a month ago. I knew it was a liquid "road salt" but was unaware of just exactly what it truly was until now. It's fracking brine.

Counties that have not approved its use are now going to be exposed to its residue as I and tens of thousands of people like me drive through these areas and have the brine washed off our cars and into the ground in our home areas, the majority of which have not approved its use. Lovely.

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